External Mics- PS I'm back

**Alex** · November 26th, 2003, 03:02 AM

It's interesting how you are interpreting the phrase "don't bother".

I don't mean don't bother and use the camera mic, I mean, don't bother to make the video at all.

Since that comment was made by me, two differing points of view have each added specifics to their viewpoints. I stand by my three specific instances where I think one should only use XLR connectors.

**belovedmonster** · November 26th, 2003, 11:38 AM

lol Alex... telling someone not to bother making the movie at all is even more retarded than telling them not to bother with an external mic

but yeah whatever... im glad someone else has finaly read the posts and agreed with me.

**sn-films** · November 26th, 2003, 01:05 PM

Tom Servo:
You may want to do a quick search on Sony's site. They have a number of mics listed under camcorder accessories that will help you. They have an array of mic solutions that clip onto the accessory shoe of the camera, which means that they are convenient, too. You'll be pleasantly surprised by how much your audio quality will improve.

**belovedmonster** · November 26th, 2003, 03:54 PM

if youre going to spend money on a mic you are far better off getting one from an audio/mic company rather than one made by the camcamcorder maker. Ive never tried one myself, but from what i have read the camcorder makers mics dont really improve the sound enough to warrent the handing over of cash.

Audio Technica make great mics for dirt cheap. I keep banging on about them in this thread but they are where to go. ATR55 shotgun mic is a good one to look at.

**Alex** · November 26th, 2003, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by belovedmonster:
lol Alex... telling someone not to bother making the movie at all is even more retarded than telling them not to bother with an external mic

What's even more retarded is not revealing what the actual accepted standard for an audio microphone truly is.

**belovedmonster** · November 26th, 2003, 07:08 PM

yeah cos miniDV is truelly accepted as the standard format for shooting movies on as well...

Like i said in the very first reply to the guys post he needs to tell us what price range he wants to spend... if he says 300 bucks then sure we can reccomend an XLR mic but until then im going to assume he doesnt have that much to spend and that all he wants is a bog standard mic to improve things...

the reason i dont agree with your opinion is that you dont take into consideration any contextual considerations... if he owned a XL1s and asked for a mic then sure i would reccomend an XLR mic straight away... but he doesnt have that. He has a cheap camera which to me says he is on a budget and willing to accept a lesser level or performance.

While i appreciate that XLR is the standard and is therefore a better investvent in the long run since it will outlast many a DV camera... is it still wrong to say he HAS to get XLR, becos he doesnt....

I dislike the way you just put foward these ideas without explaining why or putting foward the other options. Note how ive gone to great lengths to stress that although XLR is better he can still get away with other mics if he is on a budget...

Im not arguing with you that XLR is better. I know it is. But if its XLR or dont bother making a movie then you being incredibly elitist for no reason. God forbid some kid with a dream of making movies could get by with what he can actually afford.

**Alex** · November 26th, 2003, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by belovedmonster:
yeah cos miniDV is truly accepted as the standard format for shooting movies on as well...

Now that can be considered an elitist statement.

It's the standard for every one with very little money or in situations where no one is being paid. The trap is once somebody gets sucked into production, they inevitably regret later on not doing things the professional way in the beginning because of the do overs.

I certainly wouldn't use one mini-dv camera if I had a crew and actors and everyone was being paid.

I would consider using DV-CAM, but I'd feel better if I had multiple cameras. DV-CAM tape is very fragile.

Originally posted by belovedmonster:
Like i said in the very first reply to the guys post he needs to tell us what price range he wants to spend... if he says 300 bucks then sure we can reccomend an XLR mic but until then im going to assume he doesnt have that much to spend and that all he wants is a bog standard mic to improve things...

The problem with that stance is if audio is half the production value of a movie (and perhaps more), $300 bucks is still considerably less than the cost of the camera. Yet somehow, you are equating $300 bucks as the ceiling price for audio whereas the ceiling for the camera is how much?

Originally posted by belovedmonster:

the reason i dont agree with your opinion is that you dont take into consideration any contextual considerations... if he owned a XL1s and asked for a mic then sure i would reccomend an XLR mic straight away... but he doesnt have that. He has a cheap camera which to me says he is on a budget and willing to accept a lesser level or performance.

But would you accept a camera that didn't focus as an acceptable standard? Would you accept using an audio connector that IS NOT MADE to handle the rigors of field production? Maybe you know how to make the incorrect audio standard work for you, but for a newbie, giving them a substandard solution just puts them down a path that will more likely lead to failure than if they used the correct audio format.

Originally posted by belovedmonster:

While i appreciate that XLR is the standard and is therefore a better investment in the long run since it will outlast many a DV camera... is it still wrong to say he HAS to get XLR, becos he doesnt....

Here's the sequence of events as related to this topic post. I took an admittedly hard line stance.
You, instead of simply giving an opposing or different viewpoint, chose to do so and also attack my position on the matter.

Perhaps you took my original post as a personal attack because you did not start out that way. But I can't assume a newbie would handle a non-XLR arrangement to the level you may have.

I bet without realizing it you have come up with several procedures you follow to AVOID damaging the circuit board to input microphone connection found in most prosumer video cameras.

A newbie will have to learn all those steps you have already taken all over again. Most will fail. So while you deride my solution as being elitist, your suggestion also has an elitist factor built in. Only a certain percentage will master using a non-XLR audio connection, and that percentage will most definitely be lower than if one uses an XLR connection.

Originally posted by belovedmonster:
I dislike the way you just put foward these ideas without explaining why or putting foward the other options. Note how ive gone to great lengths to stress that although XLR is better he can still get away with other mics if he is on a budget...

I made a statement, if a follow up question had been asked by another, I would have followed up and offered more information. In the meantime, you brought your point of view into the equation. Which is how this forum is supposed to work.

However, you then slammed my position.

Originally posted by belovedmonster:

Im not arguing with you that XLR is better. I know it is. But if its XLR or dont bother making a movie then you being incredibly elitist for no reason. God forbid some kid with a dream of making movies could get by with what he can actually afford.

Roberto Rodriguez shot with a Super-8 Camera when he first started making films. (this was in the mid late 80's, before video had really hit it big). Because he used a super ****** "beginners" Super-8 camera, he got bad results and to this day berates super-8. If he'd used a better super-8 camera, he would have easily gotten much better results.

If forums had existed back then, I would have told him the same thing, use a decent Super-8 camera or don't bother.

I'd rather take the hardline stance based on my experiences editing other people's projects, and others can take a different path in their answers.

What's wrong with that?

**belovedmonster** · November 26th, 2003, 08:52 PM

I bet without realizing it you have come up with several procedures you follow to AVOID damaging the circuit board to input microphone connection found in most prosumer video cameras.

Only a certain percentage will master using a non-XLR audio connection, and that percentage will most definitely be lower than if one uses an XLR connection.

What is there to learn or master about any given input? You plug it in. Woop. That was hard.

The problem with that stance is if audio is half the production value of a movie (and perhaps more), $300 bucks is still considerably less than the cost of the camera.

While this is a very fair piont in principle i dont think it really equates since a top end camera will give you footage which is obviously better than a low end camera even to the casual viewer where as the ammount of people who can tell you if the guys dialogue was recording on a ?300 mic or a ?800 mic are probably nominal. Plus just becos something is equaly important on a creative and artistic level doesnt mean it has to cost the same ammount, just that the same attention to detail and time getting it right has to be used.

At the end of the day i still disagree with you. Using a none XLR mic is both easy to use and yields results perfectly acceptable for no budget movies with the idea of learning how to make movies.

We can sit and argue all day long about this, but the deciding factor is how much this guy wants to spend... if he wants to invest in pro gear then all the better for him. If he just wants a cheap solution to bad inbuilt sound a none XLR mic will be fine.

I might not go film a movie where im paying crew and actors with such a "cr*ppy" mic. But Im not going to use a Sony TRV-17 either.

If we argue on the other hand that he will upgrade his camera one day so he might aswell get a pro mic to start with... it comes back to the old chestnut of it being down to how much he wants to spend. He might not want to invest in pro sound gear just yet. And thats perfectly OK by me, but not for you...

Power to the people

[ November 26, 2003 05:01 PM: Message edited by: belovedmonster ]

**Alex** · November 26th, 2003, 10:01 PM

[quote]Originally posted by belovedmonster:

What is there to learn or master about any given input? You plug it in. Woop. That was hard.

That was ignorant.

**belovedmonster** · November 26th, 2003, 10:55 PM

maybe i am ignorant... im hardly a trained sound guy after all...

but surely the skill and technique comes in setting up the equipment and having the ability to manipulate it not whether or not you can plug one connector into another [img]graemlins/wonder.gif[/img]

the problem with your argument is as follows...

i could go away and make a film using my Sony mini DV camera and cheap mic and in the process learn loads. Everything from lighting to dealing with actors to editing. I could then show it to family and friends and post it on the internet. People could watch it and like it becos the story pulls a cord with them...

According to your argument... i shouldnt bother with a film unless the sound is XLR... so all those benefits of learning lighting, dealing with actors, editing... would be lost. And why? Becos i didnt own an XLR mic.

And all those people who enjoyed the movie, who found the story engaging despite the sound being recording on a bog standard audio connection now have to go without that movie simply becos the audio was not XLR and therefore of no use (despite the fact all the dialogue can clearly be heard)

Give me a break man...thats retarded sh1t

The only leg you stand on is if you argue in terms of investment... if you were arguing that its better to spend ?250 on a mic now than to pay ?70 on a cheap mic and then ?250 on mic in a few years time. And while you have illuded to this in one of your replies this is not the grounds of your argument... its all based around the fact anything but XLR just isnt good enough...

Not good enough for professional applications yes i agree. But for general making of movies to learn the craft, to have fun, to impress girls... whatever... at that level a none XLR mic is more than capable.

The end... there is nothing more to discuss here. Though im sure you will still reply.

Thread: External Mics- PS I'm back

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